Meat Eaters vs Vegetarians December 3, 2008
Posted by Dr Dan in Omega 3, heart disease, paleo foods.Tags: heart disease, Meat Eater, Omega 3, paleo diet, Vegetarian
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Meat intake has been decreasing over the past few decades, and this is largely due to health professionals promoting a diet that involves reduced meat consumption. However, this is unlikely to be very healthy when you consider that the human species has evolved on diets high in lean red meats. For example, consumption of lean red meats has been shown to considerably improve cardiovascular health. Dietary studies have shown a reduction in serum cholesterol levels on a PUFA (polyunsaturated fatty acid) oil rich meat diet, as well as an olive oil rich meat diet involving hyperlipidaemic subjects. Hyperlipidaemia is the term used to denote raised serum levels of one or more of total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglycerides, or both total cholesterol and triglycerides.
If lowering red meat intake was truly beneficial to our health then vegetarians should be the healthiest of all. Yet, vegetarians (especially vegans) show increased platelet aggregation compared with meat eaters. Platelet aggregation involves the clumping together of platelets in the blood and is part of the sequence of events leading to the formation of a thrombus, and subsequent heart disease. This was attributed to the vegetarian diet having much lower intakes of the omega 3 polyunsaturated fatty acids – eicosopentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosohexaenoic acid (DHA) – that can only be obtained from a diet containing meat. Most omega 3 fatty acids in the vegetarian diet (and normal US diet) came from alpha linolenic acid, which can be obtained from other means, such as flaxseed and canola oil. However, most of the beneficial effects of omega-3 fatty acids are due to EPA and DHA. This is because ALA is converted to DHA and EPA in the liver, but it is very inefficient, and so very little ALA is converted to EPA and DHA. These two omega 3 fats are also known to decrease inflammation, which is another known factor that strongly correlates with heart disease (see this post). Additionally, meat eaters had a significantly higher iron, retinol, zinc and vitamin B12 intake than vegetarians. So in short eat your meat!!!!
Food
Today I woke up and had some grass fed beef steak with roast pumpkin along with my 30g of fish oil. BUT I have remembered that bone marrow is also full to the brim with omega 3 fats. So Im going to go and get some bones and cut them up and make my own marrow oil to use. Otherwise eating 30g of fish oil everyday will be rather expensive.
Grass fed Beef Steak and Pumpkin
Then for lunch I ate some chicken broth with 150g of the roast chicken I made last night. But I forgot to take a pic – oops. So for dinner I hit the beef steak with some brocolli fried in some olive oil.
Grass Fed Beef Steak and Brocolli
Nutrition
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I don’t know about the science, all I know is what I experienced in my four years of vegetarianism. First of all, I put on around 10-14 kilos in three years and I. Was. Always. Hungry. Seriously, I could gorge myself on a huge bowl of pasta till I was so full I couldn’t move but 10 minutes later I would be looking for something else and nibbling on cheese, crackers, chocolate, toast with cashew butter (Oh, the rounds of toast I could eat!) which are all nothing but carbohydrates. No wonder I was hungry and packing on the pounds. Since doing nothing but adding meat to my diet I lost about 2 kilo, and since doing the paleo diet, I’ve lost a further three. Since getting closer in touch with my primal self/primal diet, that picture of raw red meat looks damn good to me and yesterday, when I had a sugary Dutch christmas treat, it tasted overly sweet and it burned my mouth.
Uhmm.. rambling again.
But yes. I did not feel well on a vegetarian diet, but I never put it down to the diet making me feel unwell. I know better now!
Ha, yes carbohydrate hell.
Interesting to note too. As the economic cycle downturns, meat consumption decreases while grain and legume consumption increases.
“reduced meat consumption. …this is unlikely to be very healthy when you consider that the human species has evolved on diets high in lean red meats.”
How did the Hindu population get so big and so healthy on veg. Those cheeky sneaky meat eaters! Thousands of years and billions of people all sneaking meat into their diet. Must be !; otherwise how did they remain alive and growing as a population?
They have been telling stories… haven’t they! haven’t they?
Greetings
Exuvia
(The prime Devil of Carbohydrate Hell)
Curious, but do you always eat steak? Do you ever use other cuts?
I’m near the end of a half Montana grassfed bison I bought though a co-op purchase – cut, wrapped, and frozen last May and delivered to a central pickup point in my area. The next half bison is coming this weekend, though I am splitting that one with three other people due to lack of freezer space this time, plus it’s a chance for them to try bison out before committing to a larger order. This experience has really opened my eyes to how much not only useable, but enjoyable meat there is on an animal, and most of it isn’t tender steak.
The tender bison steak cuts are quite limited in quantity compared to the rest of the meat (ground, stew, roasts, and braising cuts). It does require some forethought to get the tough cuts cooked in time for meals (2-4 hours on the stove or in the oven), but they’re great tasting (maybe better) the next day and after relatively short prep time, the cooking is mostly hands-off, leaving the cook free to do other things.
For example, it’s ten in the morning and I’ve just finished browning and assembling some cross-cut bison shanks and two small round steaks into the slow cooker appliance, using a tweaked Roman Stew recipe with eastern spices, red wine, celery and diced tomatoes. These are not tender cuts of meat, so they need the long, slow cooking of 7 or 8 hours (slow cookers are even slower than oven or range braising). But the shank bones have lots of marrow one had knuckle cartilage, so they will make a very rich, healthy sauce and the meat will be so tender it will fall apart when it is done.
Do you ever prepare meat like this?
SoG – yes, I can understand that though as they are far far more cheaper.
Exuvia – I appreciate your cynicism but the data is the data. Also, Hindu populations rely heavily on milk and coastal hindu populations eat fish. Both sources of omega 3’s although those populations that solely survive on milk are probably comparably far less healthy than the fish eating populations. Also just because a culture has survived does not equate to good health (or should I say optimal health). The best example is of course when humans became agriculturalists. They got shorter, their heads and brains got smaller, massive tooth decay, osteoporosis – all signs of a very unhealthy population. Yet, they still grew and grew and wiped out the hunter gatherers due to other reasons.
Anna, I do normally eat other cuts. Its just that in order to save money I have been buying whats on special and at the moment that is what is on special. But I have noticed too Im eating a lot of rump steak and nothing else. I love to cook meats in the slow cooker, I just havn’t got around to it for awhile.
I’m so glad you said “probably” when you ventured to describe the largest segment of the enormous Indian population as less healthy; a good reader would easily spot an unjustified generalization.
I’ve traveled on ten different occasions amongst the shrivel heads brought up on milk and carb. They looked incredibly beautiful to me. Their intense looks, their hair and their skin; and their kindness. I think the same unhealthy people have been able to participate in the space race, liberate them selves from British rule, supply the world with the trunk of most of the worlds languages. Pretty good without meat and fish. The predominant Hindu religion and the Sikh religion does not allow for neither meat nor fish. Take a look at those Sikhs. They are so sturdy it hurts.
America meanwhile is going obese and heart disease is a real killer in our own back yard.
Stay well; as for me I will stay in carb hell
Greetings
Exuvia
I think comparing them with america is not a fair comparison. Most don’t eat unprocessed meats. But thats ok as I have encountered such ‘defensiveness’ in the face of hard data before. I will just let it speak for itself.
I’ve noticed India is often mentioned as a shining example of vegetarianism at its finest. Hmmm. The modern diet in India is rapidly changing into a Westernized diet, with a significant loss of traditional sources of nutrients, such as natural fats, protein and fatty acids from insects (consumed on purpose and well as incidental, but significant, insect infestations common in non-westernized food storage conditions), and traditional minimally processed foods.
India is a huge political collection of a wide variety of cultures that have great variety in culture and diet. One can’t really generalize (but of course, we do). Some don’t consume meat, but that had been compensated by vitamin-rich dairy products, fish, and other non-plant sources of fatty acids and fat soluble vitamins.
Also, by sheer virtue of the huge population, India has an astounding number of citizens with CVD disease and diabetes, though of course the per capita rates are still lower than some developed countries like the US. But as India “westernizes” its lifestyle and the middle class expands rapidly, disease rates are gaining rapidly too. The same is true for diabetes. Wealthier and middle class Indians also fight “battle of the bulge” problems, particularly around the torso, which is a huge risk factor for a number of chronic degenerative diseases. But even the less affluent Indians are now seeing big lifestyle changes, which negative health outcomes.
And other trends in India don’t bode well for future health outcomes, either. Already European supermarket corporations are aggressively expanding in Indian cities, with “efficient” and westernized conversions in food production, storage, and packaging becoming the norm. There has been an organized campaign to shift from natural fats in ghee butter oil to “vegetable ghee”, which promotes disease. India is getting sicker, it just got out of the starting gate after the US. Also, India is rapidly developing a “procedure”-driven health care system like the US, which means treating CVD after it has developed, not preventing it in the first place.
IZqnwk Thanks for good post
In my 10 years as a vegetarian (an non-practicing now for no other reason than laziness) I was at my leanest, healthiest, fittest and most energetic. Now with meat and dairy in my diet, I am sitting about 6 kilos above my perfect weight and have circles under my eyes, and regularly I have a blocked nose, and thats without junk food. I think my digestive system just has to cope differently.
Dr Dan, do you seriously wake up, eat steak, eat chicken for lunch and then eat steak again for dinner? How many servings of fresh fruit do you eat? Do you eat a variety of nuts, seeds, legumes and a variety of raw and cooked vegetables? How much water do you drink? Some personal questions, how often do you have a bowel movement and is it easy to move when you do?
Also, you say “The data is the data” but nothing of what you say is referenced. I think that if you broaden your scope of research a little you will find that there are respectable scientists out there prosing a very differnt perspective than yours. I imgaine you are used to getting “defensive” responses… your arguments seem without real evidence and so require defending against.
Kind Regards
Elizabeth
I live in Africa and have been living up to a been there done that lifestyle for most of my 47 years. This includes being hooked and thrown by a rhino, charged by a male ostrich, stung by a scorpion and sprayed by a cobra. Our lifestyle consisted of regular braai’s (barbecues) and a staple of wors (beef+pork sausages), beer, biltong (meat, cured in vinegar salt and coriander and hung up to dry), in addition to everything the British taught us to do with food, such as pies, “tea” , fish and chips, hotdogs, fried chicken, pizza and hamburgers. In attempting to eat more healthily I switched to mostly game such as wart hog, impala, fish and free range chicken. I fell for d’Adamo’s blood type diet, and I’m O. Until I could barely walk and was almost always constipated, and too tired to go the next funeral of one of my buddies, who had died of heart failure, cancer or stroke. Of a group of 22 of my peers from 1981, we are only 4 survivors at last count. Many of my friends now have the cut and stitches across the chest or are going for their second bypass. When my urologist showed me my coronary artery on the sonar, like “hey check this out” and I saw the degree of blockage I was shocked. He said, no that’s not abnormal, get used to it. Three years ago my little daughter was only 5 and I thought it would be grossly unfair towards her not to survive and take care of her at least until her majority. So I switched to a plant based diet, no dairy, no refined foods, no vegetable oils and exercise. I’ve only lost about 15 pounds so far, but I am not constipated any more, my joints don’t ache, my piles are gone, the headaches are gone, I can jog for a few miles, I can walk any distance without discomfort except for getting a bit footsore after say 7 or 8 miles. Gone also are the blackouts and the dizzy spells. My whole family is now following this lifestyle, except my wife who sometimes cheats with milk, or cheese or chicken. When I’ve lost enough weight, I am going to take on rock climbing again; currently I only belay for my daughter now 8, who is turning into a fine climber and is also the top athlete in her peer group at school, all on a plant based diet. So what do I eat now? Pumpkin, (I even roast the seeds) sweet potatoes, broccoli, cabbage, tomatoes (mostly cooked), indian style spices, beans, lentils, spinach, carrots, onions,mushrooms, butternuts, beetroot, peppers, brown rice, potatoes, maize in all its forms, porridge (in South Africa you get white maize) corn on the cob, maize rice, samp, and air-popped popcorn. I make gravy with Bisto to pour over the veggies. I bake my own bread with crushed wheat, an apple, ground flax seeds and sunflower seeds. I make vegetable soups with the left overs and some barley and dried peas. We eat fruit between meals as snacks, and sometimes make fruit salads with fresh bananas, mangos, papaya’s etc… mixed with a can of fruit in syrup as an indulgence. So far, after almost three years we have not experienced the health horrors reserved for those who abstain from animals. Do I still enjoy cooked or roast meat? Yes I enjoy the smell. And the company. But I now abstain from it, painlessly. That way I never have meat fibres stuck between my teeth. My best friends are professional hunting guides or farmers. Some of them don’t eat meat or dairy or only occasionally and never from an unknown source such a a fast food outlet, restaurant or supermarket. Only what they have killed themselves. How I feel about hunting? Well, without the hunters large tracts of land will be unprotected for lack of economic incentive to protect it. The few hooved species that are harvested in fact pay the rent for all the trees, reptiles, birds and other not-hunted species who would be without habitat were it not for the hunters. Look at Zimbabwe, how they have lost their treasure trove of game in a few short years. That country is devastated. I know that there is a lot of controversy about whether or not you should eat animals and their products, whether for political, religious or health reasons. Animals raised for the abattoir is maybe also a form of hunting, only more organized and systematic, with the fair chase ingredient lacking. All plants are not healthy to eat, and therefore you should not eat them, for example euphorbia. Nevertheless you will always find some animal that can eat such a plant, because it has an enzyme to digest it or because it is immune to its toxins. Maybe we should eat only the foods we have enzymes for, or the capacity to digest quickly. There is a trap in following diets, being afraid of not getting enough of a good thing. People end up eating too much. In experiments, mice that were fed just short of starvation plus a little extra live twice as long as mice that never go hungry. Maybe the stomach needs a rest from time to time. Maybe one should fast from time to time just to be able to get to grips with what it means to starve versus going hungry. It’s not that painful really, more like exerting more effort than usual, such as you do when you exercise. There is a lot of talk on this blog about evolution, as if it were a principle, and not a theory. In my lifetime I have never seen evidence for evolution. All of the animals I have ever observed had parents of the same sort. If there is any evidence for evolution, you should paste links to it in this blog. I once had a pet baboon for a while (Bobby was orphaned in the bush war). There are so many differences between humans and baboons it amazes me how people can think we are related to baboons, even going many generations back. And different kinds of baboons do not cross-breed naturally. Some species are vegetarian, and some will hunt. In the wild different animals do not mate and produce offspring, but if anybody has observed such behaviour I would be interested. The european wild boar has been introduced on some farms for hunters; it looks a lot like our local bush pig, a fierce and dangerous creature. But the bush pig is nocturnal, and the boar walks around during daytime; they have cross-bred in some instances, and the offspring are torn between day and night habits, not very successful hesitancy in harsh Africa. I do not believe that carnivorous evolution is possible; slightly similar carnivores see the other as competition or food, not as a potential mate. And in the territorial presence of their parents, such dissimilar offspring are at a disadvantage to carve out a new niche of opportunity. There is too much variety in the genome of any organism to make transmogrification a probability, never mind a principle. I have never heard of a virus evolving into a bacterium, and this should be something that could have been replicated in a laboratory by now, with for example PCR, keeping in mind how quickly these creatures reproduce. I hope this has not offended anyone. I am happy with the sizzle, you can have the steak.
Dr. Dan, I find your site to be very interesting and informative, but I’m not sure if you’ve done your research on vegetarianism. I can’t claim to have done formal research myself, but from what i have read vegetarians and vegans experience remarkably low rates of both heart disease and many forms of cancer as compared to the rest of the population. The stuff you’ve written above comes across as highly misleading in the face of this evidence.
“How did the Hindu population get so big and so healthy on veg”
ahahah . Have you seen the average Hindu in India? I am a Hindu and I find this comment funny. My family eat meat and we are much bigger/stronger than the average Hindu.
Anything slightly bigger than Mahatma Gandhi is Mr Universe otherwise.
It is also a myth that Hindu’s are vegetarians. If you seee big Hindu’s they are likely to be meat eaters.
Sikhs are not vegetarian by the way, they are meat eaters!
I am a vegetarian and have been for about 10 years already. I can say that my daily diet is pretty well balanced between essential fatty acids and oats/grains. I exercise daily 5 times a week.I do not suffer from common American diseases such as obsesity, high cholesterol, or any of that. And unlike Natalie, I am not always hungry. I think that’s just her.
However, it is true that there are unhealthy vegetarians as there are healthy meat eaters.
It’s not whether you eat meat or not, its about how you balance your body’s needs as well as vital physical activity. Meat can be very good for you if you are an anthlete but you can do just as well without the meat and adequate substitution.
Bottom line : Everyone is different and some people are genetically prone to certain diseases while others are genetically protected from them. People have to take care of their diet according to THEIR needs and not just the broad information given consistently.
I decided to become a vegetarian because ever since I was little I never found meat appetizing. I would eat steak, pork chops, and chicken bake and I always found it distgusting. But if you like a good T-bone, go for it. Just don’t indulge in an unhealthy manner.
“How did the Hindu population get so big and so healthy on veg. Those cheeky sneaky meat eaters! Thousands of years and billions of people all sneaking meat into their diet. Must be !; otherwise how did they remain alive and growing as a population?”
They are not healthy at all. Besides rich Indians eat meat and lots of it. This same is with Chinese and Japanese. Poor people eat lots of carbohydrates and get sick very easy. Rich like meat, fish and fat.
True about Chinese? they seems to be healthier because of calorie restricted diet, kind of IF. But do they really look healthy? Not in my view for sure.
This same regarding Indians and other veggie population. Sorry vegetarians but you decided to join wrong group and everything because of “Chinese study” and “7 countries study”.
Unprofessional studies and fake effects.
Source of good knowledge is here: http://www.westonaprice.org
Andrew
i believe that some of this could be untrue… i am a meat eater myself, and have very rare heakth porblems; im totally halthy. these facts, in my opinion, could be true, in some cases… just not mine, or others i am relatively close to in my life. vegetarians and vegans- i agree- can be extremely healthy, and their weight under control. but, it all depends on the person.we are all different in our own way, no matter what scientists say.
POST YOUR SOURCES.
because, I am sure you made, close to 100% of it up.
Like, are you trying to make yourself feel better about eating meat?
It is proven you can get all the essential vitamins/protein you need with plant based foods. You are living in a dream world. Open your eyes, seriously, take another look at the world you are living in. The dairy industry, claims dairy makes your bones stronger? BULL! EXERCISE MAKES YOUR BONES STRONGER.Dairy and meat have been linked to heart disease, asthma and MUCH MUCH MORE. Look, search, its on the net, in books. Try questioning things- be critical, like don’t take things at face value. AND REMEMBER that meat on your plate, had a face- had a family and suffered A TON to get on your plate… and thanks to people like you, you help contribute to world hunger, GLOBAL WARMING and just a another stat, ANOTHER FATTY NORTH AMERICAN. think about it… factory farming has been around for like what 60 years and people’s waist lines have more than doubled since!
Daisy – I think that you need to take a a good hard look at your own advice actually. First of all YOU should check your sources as I am not North American and I mention it a lot. Secondly, the science you proclaim that says meat is bad for you does not differentiate between grass fed beef and heavily processed beef you find in your hamburgers and therefore there is a major confounding factor. So maybe you too could work on been a bit more critical rather than being a vegetarian fan. Stop been so defensive its one study and I thought it was interesting. Sorry your views were challenged. Maybe next time you should check your facts before making posts that embarrass yourself.
You are embarrising yourself Dr Dan with your bias. You are completely ignoring the posts here that are refuting you besides Daisy and exuvia the 2 weakest arguements here.
Connor – I am not ignoring them I thought that they were good valid posts, and that I didn’t need to defend or justify myself. People can make their own decisions and my argument is laid out throughout the post. I simply responded to Daisy because her post was completely off. Overall I agree that the people in these posts are healthy vegetarians. But all of them probably ate diets that consisted of processed meats and/or non-grass fed meat prior to becoming vegetarians and I feel they may have thrown the baby out with the bath water. Yes I am aware of the mountain of evidence that shows how healthy vegetarians are compared to meat eaters. BUT they are comparing meat eaters that eat processed meats with vegetarians. Not a fair comparison. So of course when you cut out the processed crap your going to be healthier. What else have they cut out though which could also explain this. For example Jonathon stated he ate pizza’s, hot dogs, chips, hamburgers etc. There is plenty of stuff other than processed meat that would also be unhealthy (ie high carbs, sauces, high in trans fats etc) and so therefore it is no surprise he is feeling healthier.
Great, you’ve been spammed by vegans, perhaps the most mentally inflexible people on the face of the planet. These people number amongst them those who will force their *cats* to consume vegetarian diets. This is how disconnected from reality some of them are. Someone who would force a *cat* to eat a vegetarian diet is hardly going to be able to face any evidence that *humans* are carnivorous.
Do you ever see a Paleo eater trying to force a steak upon a rabbit? No. Anyway, please stop polluting the site with vegan bollocks. Those of us that come here to read this have heard your arguments before, and dismissed them. As for the Battle of the Anecdotes, I’m far healthier on a meat-based diet, so why the heck should I listen to any of you vegan nutters?
i am an indian hindu , there are a lot of myths here that wealthy indians eat a lot meat etc.. I would say 70% hindus are vegetarians.. wealthy or poor.. i was a meat eater myself but i am not vegetarian now. There is a huge myth also in the western society that vegetarians lack protien, people must understand that a well balanced diet is needed ,not a protean heavy diet . Indian vegetarian food is the most balanced diet because of the way its prepared …….the spices herbs etc which are a luxory in western countries are very common here hence the food is balanced and much better in taste than some western cuisine.. if you visit india you will rarely see a very fat person compare tht to the Usa or uk.
and meat eaters get this out of your head that vegetarians dont get enough protean. Soyabean for example heas much much much more protean that any other meat
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