Paleo Diet Hate February 1, 2009
Posted by Dr Dan in paleo diet.Tags: paleo diet
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What a day of insults! Last night I came to the firm conclusion that the carb machine is still alive and well. Im not quite sure how this happened but I ended up getting into an argument with a few of my friends about my weight loss. I think it started when I mentioned to one of them that they should consider trying paleo if they wanted to lose weight. They then said that they could see I was losing weight BUT. I tend to believe that anything said, preceding a but, is simply softening the blow for what they actually think. Well here are some points that represent the main crux of their argument from what I can recollect.
1 – That I am simply eating healthily and exercising and that is why I am losing weight.
2 – That nothing I am doing is revolutionary and that I am simply adopting common nutritional advice
So here is my argument. First of all I found it incredibly arrogant, condescending and rude for them to assume that in all of my 20 years of dieting that I have NEVER attempted to eat healthily (according to common wisdom) and exercise. I mean COME ON!!!!!! I went on weight watchers. I have tried doing it the way people think it should be done. The weight did not come off and if it did I felt incredibily hungry all the time. When I did the paleo diet the weight has come off and I have not felt nearly the same degree of hunger as I did then.
So here is my argument against the second point. This is the common nutritional advice based off the the USDA dietary recommendations.
And here is a pyramid representing a more paleo approach.
Clearly there is quite a big difference between the two! Mainly that refined carbohydrates are not represented in the paleo diet and there is more emphasis on vegetables and meats. Also my diet doesn’t seem to be too traditional because one of them mentioned that I eat such high amounts of fat. I tried to explain that fat is not the problem it is carbohydrates. That insulin spikes cause your body to store fat and that insulin is spiked by carbohydrates not fat. That when you base your eating plan off of the USDA food pyramid you get insulin spikes even when you are eating low glycemic foods. But apparently Im deluded.
The fact is I dont care if this is revolutionary or not. I care that it works. It does work. I have tried many other diets and this is the one that has made me lose the weight. I think that that in and of itself proves my point that diets high in carbs don’t work (for me). But with all the propoganda and carbohydrate promotion out there I will just have to accept that people will always be resistant to what I say and that they will come up with their own reasons as to why I am losing weight….correct or not.
Apparently it doesn’t end there. I came on to my blog to write the above post and noticed that I was getting some hits from people talking about my blog in a forum. What did I find. Sadly, people were dicussing in the forum here that my diet was rubbish because it was a paleo diet and too HIGH in carbs or plants. So as you can see I can’t win!!!! Which is a shame because I would have thought that at least they would be understanding of the paleo approach. They seem to think that eating meat is the only healthy option. My argument is this….
Clearly hunter gatherers, other than the Inuit, ate plants. I can accept that hunter gatherers would prefer meat over plant sources and in fact I have written a post about this. However, there is no denying that plants, when available, WERE consumed by hunter gatherers and that they offered a good source of vitamins and minerals! I find green leafy vegetables supply abundant nutrients that would be difficult to obtain with meat alone. A diet that incorporates these can still be low carb and successful.
I don’t know where they got the idea that Im permanently hungry? I talk about it a lot because thats my gauge of how my body is feeling. Since I have reduced my carb intake to below 50g and am eating predominantly green leafy vegetables (no fruits or starchy tubers – well not often) I am definitely not hungry. When I talk about hunger it is not comparable to what I used to feel when I was eating like the average lay person. Also, they mention the high carb aspect because when they did it they ate lots of dried fruits, nuts and starchy tubers. Well of course you are not going to lose weight if your eating lots of these foods! This isn’t an argument against paleo. Anyone who is attempting to lose weight should eliminate these from their diet. Simple. But it was nice to hear that people think that I am naive and deluded. Poor old me.
I will keep the link up because the guy that actually writes the blog seemed nice enough, he writes really well, and I like his blog a LOT and am interested in his approach. But I believe his approach does fall under the paleo umbrella. Maybe not the Loren Cordain version but it is paleo. Paleo diets are extremely diverse and I don’t see why people can’t accept that different diets can work for different people. I can certainly accept that a diet of meat alone could be healthy. It was for the Inuits!!
Here is some of the food I have been eating over the last couple of days (note: no dried fruits, nuts or other carby foods).
Pork and Chard
Lamb, mesclun salad and tomatoes
Roast Beef, Courgettes, Chard
Let me introduce you to a new paleo blog by a fellow New Zealand girl. Add it to your links. Its called Beastie Girl.
Charles does write well, but he treats the meat-only thing as religion, not science. He has decided that beef+water is all one needs, period, and anything else is detrimental. He can’t back it up, can’t point to any study proving anything of the kind, but it doesn’t matter. And everyone else on that forum is a sheep, bleating along with him.
Charles insisting to people that beef+water was all you needed is what got him kicked off Jimmy Moore’s forum, when Charles started telling pregnant women not to eat anything but beef. Insane, and too much liability for Jimmy Moore to shoulder.
Haha hA! Oh hun, this is human arrogance at it’s best. “Only the thing I”M doing works – what you are doing is stupid and dangerous because ONLY I HAVE THE KEY, MORTAL!” Ach ja – you know, to each their own. Everyone has their own life path, and they have found theirs – good for them. We have found ours, good for us!
Their zero carbism idea is fascinating though and on the basis of that blog I have upped my fat and meat intake drastically and have seen some excellent results – namely an even further reduction in hunger levels.
It’s funny you mention your friends’ denial of the paleo diet – because I’ve had the exact same reaction off people. They want to know why I’m sitting there with my chicken legs and tomatoes while they are eating bread, pasta and margerine. So, I lauch into an explanation, tell about how I”m never climbing the walls with hunger anymore, how I can eat as much as I like and lose weight. They are really interested until they find out they have to give up bread and pasta. What about potatoes? No? Well, no. I could NEVER give up potatoes! Then I get the “she’s crazy” looks and they sort of turn as much as their backs towards me as they can. Oh, yeah, sure. It’s great for you, it would never work for me….
Pure addiction and denial. Still, not my problem, it’s theirs! Every now and again though there are people that are open to the idea and in a course I’m doing, 2 people want to read Loren Cordain’s book. Soon the Paleo revolution will begin! Bwa ha ha ha ha!
Your friends will come around as they get older and pudgier and you get leaner and healthier. I honestly believe people need to get to the end of their ropes before they will make a change. They just haven’t done so yet, but they will come to you when they have.
Sam – hmm, interesting background. The comments they made seemed to be a little ignorant of what paleo is about. Paleo is about eliminating carbs and so you shouldn’t really eat much fruits or nuts etc. Loren Cordain says this in his book but this seems to have been conveniently ignored for the purpose of the argument. Anyway I do like his blog and will continue to read it. I didn’t have any problems with him just the elitist comments.
Natalie – yes arrogance. I felt that was exactly the case. My diet works better than yours. I don’t really see that we are THAT different. I hardly have any carbs anymore. Im used to defending eating meat against vegetarians but never thought I would have to defend plants. Weird.
I like your blog just fine, charles’ is interesting too. I have no interest in going zero because I love vegies and fruits too.
But this study in pubmed is interesting:
South Med J. 1988 Jan;81(1):61-3
“Multiple food allergies required a group of seven patients with elevated serum cholesterol levels to follow a diet in which most of the calories came from beef fat. Their diets contained no sucrose, milk, or grains. They were given nutritional supplements. This is the only group of people in recent times to follow such a diet. During the study, the patients’ triglyceride levels decreased from an average of 113 mg/dl to an average of 74 mg/dl; at the same time, their serum cholesterol levels fell from an average of 263 mg/dl to an average of 189 mg/dl. At the beginning of the study, six of the patients had an average high-density lipoprotein percentage of 21%. At the end of the study, the average had risen to 32%. These findings raise an interesting question: are elevated serum cholesterol levels caused in part not by eating animal fat (an extremely “old food”), but by some factor in grains, sucrose, or milk (“new foods”) that interferes with cholesterol metabolism?”
PMID: 3336803 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Don’t beat yourself up because a few people are making themselves feel better/bonding by bashing an outsider. It’s unavoidable human nature, even though we’re not proud of such behaviors.
My weight loss is going much better now that I’m restricting carbs more (had a sweet potato tonight though for a change). It’s possible it’s due to less exercise though (due to injury). We’ve definitely seen an inverse correlation of exercise amount with weight loss. Probably due to stress/cortisol? and might not hold up once we’re in better shape (less stress response presumably). Although when I’m running, I’m usually not hungry (except on longer runs), so that’s at least some time during the day when I’m not tempted to munch!
I think the paleo approach works for most people, and it’s something they can understand and implement (once their minds are opened). But until they want to hear, they will only be threatened and react with righteous anger. We had a schism in our family because one person (girlfriend of my father in law) insisted there was nothing that would have prevented her late husband’s heart attack, that he ate a healthy diet, that she doesn’t think heart disease can be reversed either, and she doesn’t want to hear any more about it. Meanwhile her waistline gets bigger and bigger…
Just do your best and that will be good enough to reach others -eventually.
Cynthia
Dr Dan.
This has nothing to do with your diet – it has to do with belief systems.
Check out the book ‘Mistakes were Made (But Not By Me)’:
http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/0151010986
or the book ‘On Being Certain’:
http://www.amazon.com/Being-Certain-Believing-Right-Youre/dp/0312359209
Both talk about how the mind can trick ourselves that our beliefs are the single, infallible truth.
Face it – you don’t have ‘convince’ anyone of anything – naive or not, you’ve lost all this weight – and all those ‘wise and undeluded’ people stay fat.
You present your side, and if people think you’re nuts – so be it.
Welcome to my world for the last 5 years on low carb.
Regards,
LCC
Hi Dr. Dan,
Somewhat off topic question;
I’m curious, like me you seem to eat a good amount of tomatoes.
What’s your feeling on the nightshade issue.
Marc
Lol, I wouldn’t take it too hard Dr.Dan. You are doing fine. I don’t know any of the people over at that site but I know an Elitist attitude when I see it. Stick more to the MDA crowd. Much more friendly and open for options. As for 100% zero carbs… is it possible to do? Oh yes it certainly is (as you know, some tribe actually do this). Is it necessary to do? Heck no. I personally enjoy my nutrient rich vegetables and occasional fruits. You would be hard pressed to convince me that these are not good for my health. The nutrients obtains from my veggies are a PLUS to my diet, not a minus.
Don’t let it get to you. This would be like members of Opus Dei (or whatever sect beats themselves) calling Christians “diluted”.
I got in a similar experience last night when a fat dinner guest proceeded to tell me that I didn’t know what I was doing because his friend was ripped like me and ate 8 time per day and a lot of bread and potatoes. I simply said “I bet he works out for hours every day too!”. The response “Yes, he is an animal”. My response to that “Well, I workout 2-3 times per week for 30 minutes. There are many roads to the same leaness… I will take the easiest.”
I am loving lowcarbconfidentials comments. Spot on. Their problem with your diet appears to be strictly ideological. And as we all know.. ideology often goes too far.
The SoG
Hey Dr. Dan,
I got to your blog recently and love it. Everyone tends to polarize to one thing or another, but the bottom line is what works, and this works. The other issue hard to get past is the evolutionary angle. Anyone that says that the best diet is the frankenfood we eat regularly is full of it. Way back when no one would have been fat as the food available wouldn’t support it. To me, it is more about hormones than calories. Eating the right foods(Paleo) and exercising the right way(no/little cardio) sets up the right hormone environment that tends to have everything else take care of itself far easier.
Keep up the great weight loss and awesome blog posts.
I noticed that almost no one on that board shows themselves from the neck down. In my opinion, you should take this as a positive sign and avoiding debating people who aren’t genuinely open.
Of course if it were a real debate the evidence is largely on your side. The major theme I got from reading Taubes is that all of the best medical evidence is shaky, difficult to interpret, and uncertain at best. Eat like our ancestors — an evolutionary approach — is probably the most scientifically grounded strategy available, oddly enough. If any “zeroing in” folks happen to read this, it might help to know that our ancestors began eating potatoes about 10,000 years ago.
But it’s not a real debate, as other have pointed out. It’s impossible to win an argument with a fool. It’s easy to recognize when people want to engage in a true debate… lots of hypothetical if… then statements, exploring premises, direct response to criticisms, statements of _why_ certain beliefs are held etc. I looked through quite a few posts on the “zeroing in” forum and I didn’t see any of that.
Love your blog. I too have started living a strictly Paleo lifestyle- my wife and I have both gone very low carb- (I’ll call them smart carbs). I have a little different spin on this as I get about 75% of my protein from wild game. I am a big susistence bowhunter and kill about 4-5 deer a year that I process myself. I add to that usually 2-3 wild turkeys, squirrel, rabbits, wild pheasant, grouse and duck. I obvoiusly spend of majority of my free time in the woods hunting, backpacking and camping. We have been eating wild game as our main fare for 18 years- but not until a month ago did I start to commit to truly changing after reading “The Paleo Diet”. I never was too heavy- at a fairly solid 205 pounds- but really want to be about 185 pounds- lighter, leaner and healthier overall. I have lost down to 197 in a month and feel awesome. I look forward to visiting here-great posts and I keep learning new stuff!! If you have a way to get it- try some wild game. Keep up the good writing!
Hi Dr. Dan – just found the blog through the zero carb link, and there’s some really good reading here!
Just so you know…ppl over at the zc place are looking at what you’re eating through their context, and commenting as such…for many of us there, the large amounts of veg we ate on a paleo regime LED to the cravings for things like dried fruit
Argh. Any paleo hate over there is just based on personal experience, not out of any desire to slag on ppl eating differently.
Anyway, looking forward to reading more from you, and best of luck with the weight loss!
Tracy
Ditto on what everyone else said…
My “least favorites” line from others are, “well, sure it works for you, but *I know* I need to eat bread, potatoes, grains (or whatever) because we all have individual biochemistries.” Or they cite that I have impaired glucose tolerance, and they don’t, so therefore I “need a special diet” for “my condition”.
If they are more interested in arguing than considering information that is new to them, it’s best to let it go. Most people have no clue about prehistoric human life, let alone about the diets. And most really aren’t interested in learning. They prefer to assume that somehow they are so much more *evolved* than stone age humans. Just don’t get lost with them in the wild, they’ll be useless companions. Try to get lost with Les Stroud, of the Survivorman TV series
.
I second the recommendation for the book Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me). Great book, I think about it all the time.
Dan,
It’s called human envy…’coveting’.
They see how relatively ‘easy’ your way of life and losing difficult to lose fat. A few years ago I had a few co-workers come up to and they had the gall to point out and wonder if I was expecting…??! wtf?
Now…they’re envious (what I hear on the grapevine)…. and you know what looking back I don’t even mind the horrible thoughts that actually ran through my mind b/c it did actually prompt me to work harder on my regimen at the time. Personally, I hope they all get healthy — for their own sake as well as their families. Brain damage and other chronic diseases from grains and that poor USDA (you said it brutha!!) pyramid is just killing our nation and friends and colleagues. And they make stupid lame-a**sed diet comments… Until they feel/see the ‘light’, they’re like retarded people. You feel sorry b/c they can’t really help it!
Keep up the strong work!
I pick my battles (and don’t waste my time)…it’s called the ‘kiss kiss kiss…K-I-C-K’ method I learned from one of my mentors.
-G
Dan,
Do what works for you!
Congrats on your ongoing weight loss.
Really enjoy your blog – very interesting stuff.
HAHA I get the same thing from friends and people I know. They can see I lost a lot of weight but wont accept that low carb can be good for you. I is very hard to convince anyone that whole grains are not really healthy in large quantities.
I use to read the zero carb blog. I quit reading it a few weeks ago. I found that Charles can’t back up his beef and water only diet with science or even hunter gather evidence. He often brings up the Inuit as supporting his WOE, but then dismisses any discussion of the facts that they ate from the whole animal and from a diversity of fish, shellfish, and animals. I really think his brisket and water only diet with zero supplementation is risky.
Charles claims his WOE eating is all based on science but it is far from it from what read. He does not believe the law of thermal dynamics applies to the human energy – he even sites Taubes as agreeing with him. (Taubes agrees with the law he just disagrees with causation) . He also dismisses the the requirement for Omega 3 fats. He is good at cutting and pasting what others have wrote. He and his followers are also real critical of any plan but theirs. Charles also seems to have a personal vendetta against Dr Eades.
I enjoy your blog and find it based on science and history and not to preachy about being the only low carb way.
Not a big surprise about the reaction from your friends…everyone’s an expert.
You paleo plan is working for you..stick with it.
End of story.
Maybe the food pyramid works well for them…great…stick with that
Some of us are more sensitive to the effects of insulin than others.
Some of us former carb junkies are willing to eat as strict as possible to satisfy our health/vanity requirements.
Others aren’t.
But, back to your critics
What I find most disappointing are the comments on the lowcarb forum.
To the rest of the nutritional world, the difference between low carb and paleo is negligible. You both look like nut jobs to Joe Six-Pack.
It’s too bad that they are so wrapped up in their dogma that instead of actually considering your diet and debating the perceived pros and cons, they have retreated to the safety of their tribe and hurled verbal “flying toilets” at you and your paleo brethren.
Hopefully, they will respond to this post and drop by and try to change your mind. It should make for an interesting discussion.
WOW what a great response. Thanks everyone for your support!!! It certainly has lifted my spirits. I think the general theme is if it works then why knock it. I But as Dr said its just so dissapointing to here those fairly personal comments from low carbers.
Marc – I am not sure. I personally don’t see any problems with eating them. I am not ready to cut it out. But I am aware of the criticisms. But in the end I guess we do the best we can to make the best choices we can that best simulate a paleo like diet. For me tomatoes are ok.
Tracy – thanks for commenting.
What controversy!
I went to school for Holistic Health Counseling and the BEST thing that came out of it was the first day the director got up and said “If you learn anything from me – learn that there isn’t ONE diet for everyone. We are all different, and that’s what makes us beautiful.”
‘Nuff said.
I am OFTEN driven to arguments in defense of paleo! But if it is working for you – and by working I mean not only that you are losing fat but also unstressed by the experience, then what the hell has anyone got to argue with? You only have to look at MDA and Art DeVany to see that paleo works – and it works good.
We all cling to our prejudices and bias. We KNOW we are right (whatever our opinion) and with the benefit of narrative fallacy and confirmation bias we find the evidence. Oh well, at least the frustrations you feel lead to entertaining blogging!